both 部份否定

(有空我再整理這篇)
Not both of .... is ...
最簡單的回答是"Google Books找不到這種例子"(NOTE):
(NOTE: 這是比較「口頭式」的不負責任說法，畢竟Google Books沒有掃瞄所有的英文書，只是如果這個「應該很尋常」的 Not both of .... is / was 句型都找不到例子的話，那麼可以肯定的一點是就算是有也是罕見 / 不是適合用來教國中生的句型。而且在這上頭爭辯對錯沒有太大意義)

全部11頁的例子我都看過。沒有（你問的)有效例子
(剛開始會顯示大量筆數，但是一頁頁的點到最後之後只有11頁)

只有 7 個例子。都不是


我以前國中也有背過這個"部份否定"。這倒也不是"是否「不是嗎?」"的問題，而是:
１：是　是 ＜－ 兩個都成立，這當然是"both"
２：是　否 ＜－ 這不用說了
３：否　是 ＜－ 這不用說了
４：否　否 ＜－ 兩者都不成立，這當然也是"both"的否定(因為確實「不是both」)
1之外的2,3,4都是both的否定，剩下的話就要看 context 才能確定是哪個。很多時候(特別是在沒有 context 的情況下)是意思模糊不清的說法（也因此這較常見於口說/非正式場合）。

這是一個摘自THE CORPUS OF CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN ENGLISH的例子(點了之後會展開):

不要說光是這整個內容，因為(Whitney) Houston是名人，她和Mike的情況是眾所周知，也因此她說的"not both of us"差不多不用去「猜」，這裡指的是她和Mike兩人，並不是「部份否定」

下面這例子也是指兩個(both)都不是:
(note: 光是這個 Not both of ... are 的例子我也找了好一陣字（例子不多）。前頭的Corpus則是完全沒有 "Not both of ... + Verb ...." 的例子)



"Not both of ..."這句型我不想花時間去找「其中一個是，另一個不是」的情況。有興趣的話你可以看這討論串（裡頭我(djyang)給的link (連到 native speakers 的討論串）

http://www.english.com.tw/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=473&forum=11&post_id=24303#forumpost24303
#6 之後

或者下方後文（我從前個 link copy出我自己的回文）:


我以前的舊文(djyang我本人)
http://www.english.com.tw/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=473&forum=11&post_id=24303#forumpost24303

(有空我再整理)

>They are not both English teachers. (both = an adjective, one is and the other isn't)

關於這的話，這可以有兩種解釋，「兩個都不是英文老師」，或是「一個是英文老師，一個不是英文老師」，至於到底是哪個就要看內文。

以下是我到AUE問英語人士所得到的回答:

引文:
引文:
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:43:39 -0400, DJ <no@nospam.no> wrote:

Hi,

In this sentence: "They are not both English teachers"

Does it mean
1. One is an English teacher and the other one is not.

or

2. (Assuming teacher A and teacher B)
A is not an English teacher. B is not an English teacher.
This is not a question you should have to ask. Statements like this don't appear without context, and context would make the answer clear.

The answer could be 1) or 2). Go look at the source and all will be revealed.

--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
有興趣讀整串討論文的人可以點下面的link：

They are not both....

這三句也是一樣的問題多多:

Both of them are not English teachers.
They both are not English teachers.
They are both not English teachers.

都是可以解讀成"一個是，一個不是"，或是"兩者都不是"。根據我的書，作者是建議最好用"neither"來表示"兩者都不是"。

(如果要表示一個是一個不是的話呢？那麼最好是完整的寫出來，儘量不要想單靠both...not來表示)

引文:
"Practical English Usage" by Michael Swan, 3rd edition

110 both
....
6 negative structures
Instead of 'both...not', we normally use 'neither'.

Neither of them is here. (NOT Both of them are not here(*1 編者，我，註).)
(*1) 關於這點，因為用Google Books可以找到這句型，好奇下我也在AUE上問這問題（上篇貼文我在AUE問的同一串討論文），一個英語人士是回說:
It's an over-simplification to say "both...not" isn't used, but it's very useful advice to say you should use "neither" instead, since "neither" is absolutely clear in meaning.

(大致翻): 那樣子講雖然是過於簡化，但是確實是很好的建議，因為使用'neither'在意思表達上絕不會讓人搞混
有時候即使有內文仍會讓人搞不清楚both ...not指的到底是哪種意思。有興趣的可以看CyberCypher(Franke)引的那段關於颱風的文章。

----------------------------------------------

我後來在tw.bbs.lang.english群組上挖出了這兩篇，基本上差不多，也可以參考看看

引文:
Newsgroups: tw.bbs.lang.english
From: Jim Walsh
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:37:14 +0800
Local: Mon, Sep 13 2004 11:37 am
Subject: Re: 否定句和BOTH的難題

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:00:06 +0000, 今之古人 thought carefully and wrote:

> they both are not students.
> they are both not students.
> they are not both students.

The word "both" is used when there are two of something (in this case people).

There are four possible cases:

1. Two positives: They are both students.

2. Two negatives: Neither of them are students.

3. "A" negative, "B" positive: Tom isn't a student, but John is.

4. "A" positive, "B" negative: Tom is a student, but John isn't.

Native speakers simply do NOT say "Both are not students".

First of all, it means "ONE is a student and ONE is not," which is a useless sentence because we don't know which is which.

If you mean "two negatives," then say "neither is a student."

-----------------------------------------------
引文:
Newsgroups: tw.bbs.lang.english
From: "Peacenik"
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:04:57 GMT
Local: Mon, Sep 13 2004 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: 否定句和BOTH的難題

"Jim Walsh" <jimwa...@ms74.hinet.net> wrote in message

> Native speakers simply do NOT say "Both are not students".

Agree.

> First of all, it means "ONE is a student and ONE is not," which is a
> useless sentence because we don't know which is which.

I disagree. If someone says "Both are not students", I think it would mean "Neither is a student". However, you are correct: native speakers would generally not use "both" in the negative.

> If you mean "two negatives," then say "neither is a student."

Agree.

--
Peacenik



> 不可用both … not或not … both（這是「兩者中只有一個不…」的意思）

要先跟lyh說聲對不起，畢竟是要指出有問題的說法，尤其是這本書內容不錯。

劃底線的部份本來我以為是專指not在both前頭的句型，但是這並不難找到反例(*1)。至於both ...not的句型，這已經在我之前的貼文裡頭有提到了，同時反例也不難找到。

我是覺得有可能是翻譯的人在翻譯過程中出了差錯(也許漏了個It could also mean...)，所以我想去找英文原版來對照這一部分，但是實在找不到(這部份我寫在我的blog裡頭: 找不到這本書)

等找到後我再回報，只是恐怕要等段時間....(我也不確定能不能找到)

(*1)
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/composition/literature.htm

"If you're using a word processor or you have a fancy typewriter, use italics, but do not use both underlines and italics."

整個意思是有使用文書處理器，或是新一點的能打出斜體字的打字機，那麼就單用斜體字，不要底線和斜體字兩者一起用。

按照內文，劃底線的部份指的是「不要底線和斜體字兩者一起用」，而不是「兩者中只有一個不…」，因為前文已經提到「單用斜體字」，而「兩者中只有一個不…」指的是可以兩者任選一個，然後剩下的一個就不要用(換言之變成選底線也是可能的選擇)，這不符合原意。

另一個是日常中容易遇到的"I don't like them both"，在絕大多數情況下指的是"兩樣都不喜歡"而不是"一個喜歡，另一個不喜歡"(我的印象裡頭沒遇過這種意思的)。例句的話Google上實在是很多，所以就不列了。


http://www.englishforums.com/English/LogicAndNegativeSentences/dcvbj/post.htm#sc261587

http://www.englishforums.com/English/EnglishGrammar/vxqbr/post.htm


not .... both
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/5fb463d0374aa0e9#

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/22745caac44e57e5?pli=1
at
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